Fulcrum

Introduce your business and what you do there.

I’m the project manager for an IT and software solutions provider.

What challenge were you trying to address with Fulcrum?

We sometimes outsource some of our work.

What was the scope of their involvement?

Fulcrum is helping with the development of an iOS and Android food and beverage app. The app has a booking system for providers, as well as maps so that providers can see the locations of users. They use React.

What is the team composition?

They’ve designated a project manager to us. We’re in contact with three people, but I’m not sure how many other people there are.

How did you come to work with Fulcrum?

They were recommended by a friend who worked with them.

How much have you invested with them?

My company has spent $25,000.

What is the status of this engagement?

We started working together in August 2019, and it’s ongoing.

What evidence can you share that demonstrates the impact of the engagement?

We’re happy with the results. We’re also pleased by how Fulcrum connects with and responds to us. The bugs are very minimal, and the quality is really good.

How did Fulcrum perform from a project management standpoint?

Our communication is really smooth. They’re really helpful, and they respond well. We use Slack.

What did you find most impressive about them?

The quality of work is really amazing. The technology they’ve used is really good. They’re flexible. They try their best to meet our expectations and provide us with a good experience.

Are there any areas they could improve?

No, they’re a really good team and company to work with.

Do you have any advice for potential customers?

You don’t have to worry about anything; they keep their customers’ best interests in mind. They bring good value and advice to the project.

Introduce your business and what you do there.

artsnext is an innovation agency based in Zurich, Switzerland. We focus on two things: engagement with young target groups, and empowerment, specifically in the context of new work and change awareness. That’s the space that the project with Fulcrum falls into. We’re a startup company with eight people, only three of them fulltime. I’m part of the board. I would refer to myself as the director, and I’m the one with the technical background.

What challenge were you trying to address with Fulcrum?

We needed a platform to pilot a training or personal learning program that could foster change awareness. It would be a way of learning that could be integrated into the working day without the activity becoming distracting. The target group is employees of larger companies.

We had a short timeframe to develop the platform for the pilot program. We had six weeks to develop it before starting a round of testing, and another three weeks before taking it to the prospective client, who came on board with 100 test users. That phase is running right now. We needed someone who could support doing this in essentially no time.

What was the scope of their involvement?

Fulcrum developed the full web-based platform MVP. It involves a whole registration and authentication flow, with ‘Forgot Password’ and login features. The platform has two sides, with the first being for program participants to take part in the self-directed learning activities. Then, there’s an administration interface for creating the individual learning lessons. The platform is based on JavaScript, React, and AngularJS.

We spent a week in the discovery phase and provided some very lo-fi wireframes on paper. Fulcrum assigned a designer to essentially create the wireframes, including all of the developer assets, using Figma. We had a clickable prototype of what the platform would look like, based on which we made some design decisions. We also created the specifications in that first week.

Fulcrum essentially transformed our documentation into a more technical requirements analysis, and then they got to working on the project in phases. They did a two-week development sprint to put the whole framework together, with all of the login and user management features and a first version of the player. The player consists of a number of template screens that can be used.

What is the team composition?

We had a designer and a requirements analyst during the initial phase, and there was a part-time project manager throughout the project. Then, there were three developers; I only spoke to them once about the technical details, as they were fully managed by the project manager. We also had an account executive, who dealt with the contract, money, and so on.

How did you come to work with Fulcrum?

We put out an offer on Upwork for the initial discovery phase, and we had around 100 companies making offers within 24 hours. We made a shortlist, and I had phone calls with five of them. There were three that were ultimately interested, and we decided that we’d go through this discovery phase with Fulcrum. We looked at whether they could do it within our timeframe and budget, which was limited as well.

How much have you invested with them?

My company has spent $15,000 so far. The discovery phase was $1,000, development was $12,000, and the rest was for maintenance. We’re still on retainer with them.

What is the status of this engagement?

We started working with Fulcrum in November 2019, and it’s an ongoing engagement.

What evidence can you share that demonstrates the impact of the engagement?

Fulcrum delivered a working MVP platform. The thing that impressed me was the level of quality control and testing that they applied on their side. We went through a rather extensive testing of all use cases. Compared to previous experiences I’ve had, and given our shoestring budget, there was very little that didn’t work. They have a very good process for making sure that what they specify and the changes that come up are fully regression-tested.

Another helpful thing is that they’ve been incredibly responsive in terms of dealing with small bugs that came up on the weekend or other times outside of the agreed-upon response times.

How did Fulcrum perform from a project management standpoint?

They performed well. The team essentially did two sprints in two weeks. They used Airtable to break down the project and for communication. They put the project plan into Gannt charts. We also used Jira to look at the backlog. They were quite proactive about recording their progress. There were a few bugs and misunderstandings afterward, and we used Jira to deal with those.

What did you find most impressive about them?

Their internal quality control process sets them apart. I assume they have the size to also tackle bigger projects. They have sufficient resources to add an extra developer when things get tight. They keep all of these resources together.

Are there any areas they could improve?

For some of our questions, I wish the project manager had more technical expertise. There were many things she had to take back to the team. It wasn’t a problem; she just couldn’t give me immediate answers. I got the sense that she didn’t have a technical background, but it was okay in the end. As long as she had project management in her control, it was fine.

Do you have any advice for future clients of theirs?

It depends on the situation. They have technologies that they have mastered and are comfortable with. I’ve gone with their advice on a number of things where either I lacked experience or just didn’t know. What I would not recommend is that the client tries to impose their own preferences on Fulcrum, if it’s not something they’re comfortable with. If the client wants an application built in JavaScript, and they have a company that’s more comfortable with PHP frameworks, it’s probably not a good idea. If they’re more comfortable with AWS, they shouldn’t be forced to go on Google Cloud. I’m pretty pleased with Fulcrum’s advice, but I also didn’t try to move into something they were uncomfortable with.

Introduce your business and what you do there.

I’m the founder of Subbxi Media, a platform that splits video into several segments, allowing linguists to create subtitles collaboratively and in real-time. They can also get feedback from one another and flag errors.

What challenge were you trying to address with Fulcrum?

We hired Fulcrum to develop this web application.

What was the scope of their involvement?

Their team is working with us to create a web app. Right now, they’re working on the prototype, developing the front- and backend from scratch.

What is the team composition?

There are about seven people involved, but I don’t work directly with each of them.

How did you come to work with Fulcrum?

Someone that I found on Clutch recommended Fulcrum for my project. After hearing they were invested in the work we were doing, I knew I wanted a team that had a lot of passion and energy for our project. I had a bad experience with a previous company, so I chose Fulcrum because I could tell they really wanted to work with us. 

How much have you invested with them?

We’ve spent €30,000 (approximately $33,400 USD).

What is the status of this engagement?

We started working together in July 2019 and the project is ongoing.

What evidence can you share that demonstrates the impact of the engagement?

Though the platform has a long way to go, the prototype is essentially ready to show to investors. It’s functional and looks great visually. Overall, I’m very satisfied with Fulcrum’s work so far.

How did Fulcrum perform from a project management standpoint?

Their project management approach is really good. We communicate via Google Hangouts, Slack, and occasionally by phone.

What did you find most impressive about them?

Working with them is very easy and they fight for our project’s goals. They put in the effort for our ideas as much as they can. 

Are there any areas they could improve?

Although it’s not a big problem, their English communication could be improved. 

Do you have any advice for potential customers?

Make sure to clarify things to avoid any miscommunications.

Introduce your business and what you do there.

We’re a mobile app developer. We also offer web-facing solutions integrated with our apps. I’m a co-founder and the CEO of the company.

What challenge were you trying to address with Fulcrum?

As part of a new venture, we’re developing multiple mobile applications with different capabilities. Fulcrum helped us develop all the solutions related to the web side of our apps. This included front- and backend work.

What was the scope of their involvement?

Fulcrum assisted us with full-stack development for the web aspect of our apps. Our company offers two applications. One is for phone calls and the other is a calendar app. They each have web-facing features, and Fulcrum has helped develop those.

We have our own backend team, but we’re busy with other work. Their team has enabled us to develop faster. We’re very happy with the results so far. The technology stack is based in Node.js and React.

We’ve developed different features, including a system for scheduling meetings, a web data scraper, an email system, and a call assistant that reminds people to return missed calls.

What is the team composition?

They work with a part of our own team in Kyiv. Fulcum have their own developers, and the work with them is very open.

How did you come to work with Fulcrum?

We have our own team in Kyiv, Ukraine, so we’re familiar with the area. We looked for companies there and met a few of them. In the end, we got a very good impression of Fulcrum. We’ve worked with other companies in the past and didn’t have good experiences.

How much have you invested with them?

On our end, we invested $50,000–$100,000.

What is the status of this engagement?

We started working with Fulcrum in May or April 2019, and it’s ongoing.

What evidence can you share that demonstrates the impact of the engagement?

We’re now integrating most of their work into production. Fulcrum has really helped us in boosting our development effort. Because of this, we didn’t have to find developers for ourselves.

It felt like they were part of our team, which was our goal. We wanted to find a company that worked synergistically, rather than merely sending tasks to someone and getting a result in the end.

They’re very flexible and possess a wide array of knowledge, including front- and backend development. In terms of web development, they know how to work effectively and use modern technologies.

How did Fulcrum perform from a project management standpoint?

They have a project manager for each of our projects who serves as the communication point, helps build the roadmap, and gives us status updates. We can communicate with the team directly, but the project manager is usually the main point of contact. We have Jira and Slack, which allows for open communication. We have weekly status meetings for each of our projects where we raise issues. They solve them as fast as possible and the experience has been very good so far.

With Fulcrum, we have open communication and I feel they really try to give us the correct status of a project. Other companies we’ve worked with didn’t tell us what was going on with the projects, the date estimates were incorrect, and everything was a mess.

They try to give us the correct estimates on time. We haven’t experienced too many delays.

What did you find most impressive about them?

It’s rare to find a company that’s able to communicate well and also deliver. This is definitely one of their strengths. They mention any issues instead of trying to hide them.

Are there any areas they could improve?

One of the things that’s helped us work well together is creating a very good specifications document for what we’re building. I know from past experiences with other companies that failed to produce that. We’ve tried to give the clearest possible picture. However, when something was missing, they just knew what to do.

Do you have any advice for future clients of theirs?

If you provide good specifications of what we’re trying to build and know all the aspects of it, the project will be effective.

Please describe your company and your position there.

We are LastCall. A Norwegian startup making discounted tickets for cultural events available for everyone. We have created a CMS for organizers and an app where users can get access to content and book tickets. I am a co-founder and CTO of the company

For what projects/services did your company hire Fulcrum?

Our landing page was out-dated and didn't serve our need of getting downloads and onboarding new event organizers. In addition we wanted to make app content available on the website and follow best practice regarding marketing setup. Being a startup, we are always short of resources and we needed external help from someone we could trust to build that site for us

What were your goals for this project?

We needed a new landing page that could serve two main purposes: (1) Trigger downloads from app users and (2) onboard event organizers so that they can add more content and increase sales.

How did you select this vendor?

We searched wide, and even tried out freelance platforms and contacted companies that had sent us "cold" emails promoting their consulting services. One of those services recommended Fulcrum and we arranged a video call to get to know each other. That meeting was very productive. I liked the way they structure their work and I also felt that they were trustworthy. We selected Fulcrum because liked their reference projects, price and how the work process was structured

Describe the project and the services they provided in detail.

First we provided a very high level requirements document describing what we wanted to communicate on the site and what services we wanted to use and integrate. Fullcrum then took those requriements and created a high level wireframe that and description of the project with estimates. This first phase was a part of the project and on billable hours. To us that was very useful because the price was known after this phase and as a startup we are very sensitive to budget overruns. The delivery was then split into phases, with a checkpoint at the end of each phase. We also used Slack to do continuous clarifications during the development. This made it all more agile and created room for changes within the defined budget.

What was the team composition?

Fulcrum did involve a few people but not everyone 100%. One junior and one senior developer, one designer, test and project management.

Can you share any information that demonstrates the impact that this project has had on your business?

First of all, we would never have had a new site if we were to do it our self since we don't have the time and resources. In addition we needed someone we could trust as we have a very strong, personal ownership to our startup. As of project completion, we have not deployed the site yet, but the feedback from testers and focus groups indicate that the new site will serve its purpose.

How was project management arranged and how effective was it?

As mentioned before, we did a pre-project that defined and detailed the scope and price. Delivery was split into milestones and we communicated on slack and sometimes google hangout for demos. English level is good, but it's will always add a layer of distraction talking over video or voice calls. As always it is important to verify what both sides think and agree on.

What did you find most impressive about this company?

They are young and really engaged in both the tech and the solution created for us. I feel that they are on our side in this. The ability to be confident in pricing is something I have never experienced before. I think the pre-project setup is very productive as long as you are able to keep agility in the project execution.

Are there any areas for improvement?

Difficult to do bigger changes in the middle of the project since we have more or less fixed the scope after the pre-project. I suggest having a buffer in the budget to use in case we find some bigger changes we want to do.

Introduce your business and what you do there.

I’m the CEO of BUFF, a gamer loyalty program.

What challenge were you trying to address with Fulcrum?

We were looking for an end-to-end development partner to develop our product. We had a vision and wanted someone to build out a live product.

What was the scope of their involvement?

They developed our desktop app, which is a loyalty program for gamers. It’s a technology that sits on top of the most popular existing video games. Using truly smart AI technologies, the app records and analyzes the data of everything that’s going on inside the games and gives incentives to gamers based on their achievements within the games. 

Fulcrum developed the app’s front- and backends. They also did QA and project management. They used Python, React, and AWS and did lots of integrations with third parties, like PayPal and other payment solutions. It’s a partnership, where we’re doing the UI, product requirements, and the technical documentation, planning, architecture, and execution.

What is the team composition?

There’s a product manager, QA person, backend developer, and frontend developer. We have an in-house designer working with them. My main point of contact is Igor (CEO, Fulcrum).

How did you come to work with Fulcrum?

They were referred to me from someone I worked with in the past.

How much have you invested with them?

My company has spent $150,000.

What is the status of this engagement?

We started working together in June 2018, and the work is ongoing.

What evidence can you share that demonstrates the impact of the engagement?

The main metric we look at is whether our milestones are met. We plan three months ahead, and they’ve met all the expectations so far. We also consider second look retention metrics. We’re exceeding KPIs for user behavior and engagement with our product. The product is very strong and reliable, and it’s done really well.

How did Fulcrum perform from a project management standpoint?

They deliver on time and in budget. We have really close communication on a daily basis. We use Slack and Jira to communicate. They also travel to us, and we travel to them. It’s a very hands-on partnership.

What did you find most impressive about them?

Fulcrum is really proactive. They’re involved in product development and the milestones. They’re not just executing; they share their own ideas.

Are there any areas they could improve?

So far, it’s a five-star rating from my end; they by far excel other companies I’ve worked with in the past. I have no negative feedback I can give.

Do you have any advice for potential customers?

Get them really involved and see them as partners.

Please describe your company and your position there.

I am the president of Gus Skarlis Inc.

For what projects/services did your company hire Fulcrum Rocks?

My company hired Fulcrum Rocks to build out our mobile application.

What were your goals for this project?

We wanted to offer a mobile app that would be easy and simple for our clients to use.

How did you select this vendor?

We researched vendors for about forty-five days before we selected Fulcrum Rocks.

Describe the project in detail.

Fulcrum Rocks connected our web platform to our mobile app via API calls.

What was the team composition?

My team worked with a project manager and three developers.

Can you share any outcomes from the project that demonstrate progress or success?

Fulcrum Rocks completed and delivered the app.

How effective was the workflow between your team and theirs?

Their communicative nature and quick response times met our needs.

What did you find most impressive about this company?

Fulcrum Rocks understood what our app did and made the development process easy.

Are there any areas for improvement?

The deadlines could’ve been tighter.

Please describe your company and your position there.

I’m the CEO and founder of our company.

For what projects/services did your company hire Fulcrum?

We hired Fulcrum to build a mobile app for iOS and Android using the React Native framework.

What were your goals for this project?

The goal was to deliver a complete and fully tested app into the store

How did you select this vendor?

Originally, we considered three companies. Fulcrum stood out to us as the most creative and understanding team. We picked them based on their ability to provide creative input. They also had experience building a similar app in the past. 

Describe the project in detail.

The project had already set specifications and required Fulcrum to use various API libraries and technologies while working with AWS DevOps team. They performed perfectly and went an extra mile to help us deliver the apps into the stores.

What was the team composition?

Fulcrum assigned us a team manager, and about 3-4 other people were involved. We chose the easier method of communicating with just one person, the manager, instead of the whole team.

Can you share any outcomes from the project that demonstrate progress or success?

Fulcrum followed the milestones we set out perfectly. They went above and beyond.

How effective was the workflow between your team and theirs?

It was really great; the work was well-documented and there was no friction between the teams. They kept a professional approach from beginning to the end.

What did you find most impressive about this company?

Knowing we could trust Fulcrum with any task was the most important value for us.  They used best practices and common sense to deliver each milestone. I definitely appreciated the team’s ability to work independently.

Are there any areas for improvement?

If I had to pick one area,  it might be paying attention to detail.

Please describe your company and your position there.

I’m the CEO of a gaming platform that seeks to increase the use of crypto within the industry.

For what projects/services did your company hire Fulcrum?

We needed a vendor to create a website along with APIs based on our designs for external developers to implement into their games.

What were your goals for this project?

We wanted a user-friendly website and APIs for gamers and developers, along with a functioning exchange within a store.

How did you select this vendor?

We found them through an online search for a vendor. We were impressed by their professionalism and we thought their asking price was fair.

Describe the project and the services they provided in detail.

We spent two weeks meeting with them in order to ensure they understood our project in detail. They then worked to create a minimum viable product by the end of a two-week hackathon, followed by ongoing support.

What was the team composition?

We hired four developers from their firm: a blockchain developer, a frontend developer, and two backend developers.

Can you share any information that demonstrates the impact that this project has had on your business?

Our business remains in a startup, so I can’t address any impact. They’ve worked throughout the engagement to keep the project on track.

How was project management arranged and how effective was it?

We communicated with the developers through a single Slack channel. Fulcrum’s director served as the project manager.

What did you find most impressive about this company?

Their communication and English-language skills proved very helpful.

Are there any areas for improvement?

No, I can’t think of anything.

Please describe your company and your position there.

I am the founder of a startup.

For what projects/services did your company hire Fulcrum?

I hired Fulcrum Rocks to develop a mobile app using React Native.

How did you select this vendor?

I selected Fulcrum Rocks because they quickly understood my needs. I wanted to hire a vendor that could offer clear communication, high-quality work, fast implementation, and good technical analysis.

Describe the project in detail.

They built a mobile app that would efficiently show offers based on location. Currently, our internal team is developing additional features to complete the app. We plan to extend the testing stage to make sure we don't encounter a bug when we deploy.

What was the team composition?

I worked with the whole team.

Can you share any outcomes from the project that demonstrate progress or success?

They did a great job of fulfilling my requirements and offering suggestions to improve the final product. After they delivered the app, they stayed in contact to ensure there were no bugs.

How effective was the workflow between your team and theirs?

I had weekly meetings with one contact who communicated to his team how to fulfill our requirements. He did complete documentation of the project, which helped us avoid any miscommunication. I also monitored their tasks and progress daily.

What did you find most impressive about this company?

Fulcrum Rocks has a great team and impressive technical documentation. They made sure that everyone understood their code and clearly explained the API and backend.

This company is quite promising. I would like to see Fulcrum Rocks grow and achieve greater results in the future.

Are there any areas for improvement?

There’s not much improvement needed.

This review was updated on September 26th, 2019, by the client. The original star ratings were: Overall – 5, Quality – 5, Schedule – 5, Cost – 4.5, NPS – 5. New content is below.

BACKGROUND
Introduce your business and what you do there.

I’m the founder and CEO of a startup called Offerbrite. My business promotes nearby offers in different categories to customers.

OPPORTUNITY / CHALLENGE
For what projects/services did your company hire Fulcrum Rocks?

I hired them to develop a mobile app using React Native.

SOLUTION
What was the scope of their involvement?

The initial project started in September 2018 and was divided into two phases. They completed the first phase successfully, producing a functional mobile app. The second phase involved developing an admin panel as well as the web app version. They’d tested the solution, and everything was fine.

By then, I decided to pursue a third phase with them to handle further enhancements, but the app was missing some of its features. Even though I was paying them the same amount, I’d received less work.

Fulcrum Rocks wanted to do a fourth phase, but I decided to go with individual freelancers instead, with the goal of hiring my own full-time developers. They told me that my project would suffer because I’d be switching to another provider, however, I felt that I could manage the development myself.

How did you come to work with Fulcrumwith you Rocks?

I first found them on Upwork. They promised a good offer and strong developers, so I hired them.

How much have you invested with them?

Unlike other companies that work on an hourly rate, they requested that I pay a fixed amount for each phase.

What is the status of this engagement?

We started working with them in September 2018 and stopped our contract in June 2019.

RESULTS & FEEDBACK
How did your relationship with the vendor evolve?

As soon as I hired another developer, I asked Fulcrum Rocks for an SSH key to my files on DigitalOcean so that my developer could access the backend code and APIs. They directed me to contact DigitalOcean, so I thanked them and retrieved the key myself.

However, over the next few days, the app stopped working completely. It was just issue after issue. Making any changes to one part of the app would crash other parts.

So, I hired a Linux expert to dive into the server to check the logs for any potential hack attacks. He noticed multiple access logs from an IP address in Ukraine. 

There was also another access point from an IP address in China on August 16th, 2019, but it seemed like a proxy address. The hacker deleted all of our files, which caused the app to stop working. 

How did Fulcrum Rocks address the challenges that arose?

I confronted Fulcrum Rocks about the security breach, but they denied knowing anything about the issue. Development houses are supposed to deliver well-protected apps, but ours was completely vulnerable. 

It’s also common to extend 1–2 months of tech support after the end of the contract, but Fulcrum Rocks didn’t do that. We kept running into issues like username and password issues or mismatched email accounts. 

When we asked them for more information, they’d eventually respond saying that they’d fix our app for a fee.

Describe the impact this engagement has had on your business.

I’ve lost a lot of money trying to get my app ready for launch. And, it’s a time-consuming process to find a new developer who can build my product, especially since I might have to start from scratch.

Unfortunately, I share some of the blame because I didn’t push for post-project tech support in the initial contract. I didn’t realize that other development firms typically ask to sign NDAs and work hourly.

They also didn’t use privileged access to work on my accounts. I’d given them my email and passwords, which they’d used to promote their own accounts on Apple Play. Once I saw that they’d put their company email on my account, I had to delete the account entirely.

What advice do you have for clients with similar needs to yours?

You have to be knowledgeable when entering a development project. Have a technical lead on your side who can monitor the vendor’s work, performance, and activities.

This review was updated again on November 15th, 2019, by the client. New Content is below.

BACKGROUND

Introduce your business and what you do there.

My app idea is to publish discounts from business owners on OfferBrite to their consumers, My role in the app is finding the team to build the MVP to help with my plans for this business and making relations with B2B and B2C, investors, paying for cost and monetizing the app

OPPORTUNITY / CHALLENGE

What challenge were you trying to address with Fulcrum?

I tried to build the MVP with the lowest amount of effort and the lowest amount of cost. As I progress later, it seems to me that working with a company boosted my knowledge and boosted the creation of the app I needed to work with individuals for small changes and addition to the app.

SOLUTION

What was the scope of their involvement?

They built the OfferBrite admin panel, business web app, and mobile apps for the business and consumer.

What is the team dynamic?

They assigned Julia as a project manager, Oleksii React native / full-stack developer. They have assigned a designer and backend developer as far as I know, but I never got introduced to them while they were working on the project. I was only contacting Julia.

How did you come to work with Fulcrum?

I posted a job on Upwork and based on their performance and cost I hired them.

How much have you invested with them?

$16,000

What is the status of this engagement?

Our engagement is finished with Fulcrum Rocks.

RESULTS & FEEDBACK

How did your relationship with the vendor evolve?

After the successful implementation of tasks. The app was truly hacked and it was difficult to fix since there was no structure or manual for the APIs. But, eventually, a high-profile developer helped me and fixed the project within two days.

How did Fulcrum address the challenges that arose?

They set weekly meeting calls to discuss the issues and resolve them.

Describe the impact this engagement has had on your business.

Fast implementation, quality work, and ease of technical requirements.

How was project management handled?

They take the requirements by calls on Skype and draft a document with the cost and time estimation for each task.

Is there anything that the vendor did well or that you would consider a strength?

They worked extra hard to make sure my business succeeded and had a strong reputation.
 
In what specific areas can they improve?

Their payment structure is by the hour instead of by milestones.
 
What advice do you have for clients with similar needs to yours?

If your app has similar functionalities to mine and you want to save the headache of hiring bad developers, wasting time writing tech requirements, finding developers/designers/DevOps and looking for technologies, then these guys should be your pick. They’re experts.