CM&D

BACKGROUND

Introduce your business and what you do there.

I’m the VP of innovation at Augustana University, a liberal arts institution in South Dakota dedicated to academic excellence, digital innovation, and holistic student growth.

OPPORTUNITY / CHALLENGE

What challenge were you trying to address with CM&D?

We needed help identifying the best VR solution, procuring headsets, storage options, software packages, and licensing.

SOLUTION

What was the scope of their involvement?

CM&D helped us procure 30 headsets, storage solutions, a budget for implementation, licensing, and software. They also helped us with grant proposals. The team was an outstanding brainstorming partner and helped us better define what we wanted and what success could be for us. CM&D worked within our budget and was always available. For a nominal fee, they consulted and pointed us to all the right people and services that aligned with our aspirations.

What is the team composition?

We worked with 2–5 teammates from CM&D.

How did you come to work with CM&D?

Someone referred CM&D to me. We chose them over other options because their pricing fit our budget, they were a great culture fit, and they offered good value for the cost.

How much have you invested with them?

We spent less than $10,000.

What is the status of this engagement?

We worked together from January–September 2025.

RESULTS & FEEDBACK

What evidence can you share that demonstrates the impact of the engagement?

We had a successful VR pilot for our entire university campus, including 30 headsets, storage cards, checkout solutions, software licensing, training, and evaluation. The students said they got to know one another better in our first VR course than they did in the eight weeks of in-person learning. This speaks volumes about the power of VR and engaging this generation.

How did CM&D perform from a project management standpoint?

CM&D’s project management was outstanding. We communicated via virtual meetings, emails, and messaging apps.

What did you find most impressive about them?

CM&D was really interested in us and making us successful. The other point was that it’s a fast-moving world, and some companies we started working with were going in different directions halfway through our project. However, CM&D was able to hook us up with another reseller.

Are there any areas they could improve?

No, I only wished we could’ve kept them engaged for the entire year.

BACKGROUND

Introduce your business and what you do there.

I’m the founder of Stress Away, a stress management VR app.

OPPORTUNITY / CHALLENGE

What challenge were you trying to address with CM&D?

We needed to create a VR app based on my vision.

SOLUTION

What was the scope of their involvement?

CM&D assisted us with custom app development, specifically AR/VR development. Basically, they took my vision and created the stress management app from scratch. I provided the audio, samples of what I wanted the imagery to look like, a color scheme, and an idea of how I wanted the home environment to look.

Then, they sent me samples of what they found that closely matched what I envisioned for the app. CM&D helped me decide what technology to use for the development. They put all the pieces together, and we went back and forth.

Afterward, they sent me a test sample to review and get approval, and then we moved forward until the project was complete. They also helped me upload the app to the Oculus platform.

What is the team composition?

Ricky, the founder & CEO, was my main point of contact.

How did you come to work with CM&D?

I was given a list of VR developers and contacted several of them to explain what I wanted to do. CM&D was one of the companies. Ricky and I met over Zoom and talked about the project at hand. He helped explain the process of converting my vision into an app. We seemed to work well together, so I decided to go ahead and work with their company.

How much have you invested with them?

We spent around $30,000.

What is the status of this engagement?

We worked together from September 2022 to October 2023. The app was completed in October 2023, but I maintained the connection with CM&D until June 2024.

RESULTS & FEEDBACK

What evidence can you share that demonstrates the impact of the engagement?

CM&D completed the app and launched it on the Oculus platform in June 2024. Since then, users have bought the app's services. This process was a learning curve for me, but sales definitely came in.

I was very happy working with Ricky, given that I didn't have a technical background. In fact, I'm a clinical psychologist and have been dealing with stress management for 30 years. However, in terms of translating my knowledge into a technical format, Ricky was invaluable. He understood well what I wanted and what the technology could do.

I hope we can continue to work together as I expand the app. Overall, the whole team was great.

How did CM&D perform from a project management standpoint?

CM&D's communication was great. Everything always takes longer than expected at work, so the project took longer than we thought it would. We usually met via Zoom, or Ricky would email links to where I could see the sample projects. The project management was all on his side.

What did you find most impressive about them?

Ricky was really helpful in helping me understand and make the final decisions on how best to translate my vision for the app. He also helped me understand what options were available, which I really appreciated because I’m sure he usually speaks to people with more technical knowledge. We're a small company, and I’m a newbie, but he was great.

Are there any areas they could improve?

I wish I had known upfront that helping me upload the app to the Oculus platform wasn’t included in the original contract. It was a little bit of a shock for me when the final product was done, and I didn’t know how to get it onto the Oculus platform. I couldn't understand what the platform asked of me; it was like reading instructions in another language. I simply didn't possess the technical background. I wish CM&D had told me upfront that I only paid for the app.

However, Ricky did help me with that when I said I didn't know what I was doing. It took six months to get the app onto the Oculus platform because I had to return to him and ask for help. After all, the app wouldn't be useful if we didn't upload it.

Do you have any advice for potential customers?

You probably won’t have any issues if you have a technical background. However, if you have zero technical background, let CM&D know upfront that you’re going to need a lot of their help and support. Also, find out if there will be an extra fee for that additional help.

BACKGROUND

Introduce your business and what you do there.

I’m the CEO and founder of a VR software company focused on emotional wellness.

OPPORTUNITY / CHALLENGE

What challenge were you trying to address with CM&D?

We needed help developing our proof of concept (POC).

SOLUTION

What was the scope of their involvement?

This is actually the second project we've done with them. The first involved creating a storyboard. It also encompassed the basic process of the POC and its UX/UI design workflow. This project, however, was different. CM&D assisted us with software development. Using UNITY, they built our POC, an interactive VR software, from scratch. Our POC dealt with negative emotion resolution.

What is the team composition?

I primarily worked with Ricky, the founder and CEO. I also collaborated with a branding specialist and a video creator. Ricky handled the rest of it.

How did you come to work with CM&D?

I found them through a Google search. I sent them an email and got in contact with Ricky. After that, we discussed his company's capabilities and the project at hand. Then, we got a quote from them.

How much have you invested with them?

We spent $78,500.

What is the status of this engagement?

We worked together from January 2023 to April 2024.

RESULTS & FEEDBACK

What evidence can you share that demonstrates the impact of the engagement?

We received great feedback about the POC's efficacy and applicability. Overall, the whole team at CM&D did an incredible job. They were instrumental in the design aspect as well.

How did CM&D perform from a project management standpoint?

Communication was great, especially during the design process. Ricky managed the project and ensured everything was on track. Since this was a new project for both of us, we had to work through many things. Software like this hadn't been built before, and we had to figure out how to do it together, but we succeeded. Besides, we mainly used email for communication.

What did you find most impressive about them?

I was impressed with CM&D's flexibility and willingness to figure out how to develop the software. They were great partners.

Are there any areas they could improve?

Communication got a bit more challenging towards the end of the project.

Do you have any advice for potential customers?

Understand what you want your project to be and articulate that as clearly as possible. Ricky usually understands the project’s needs well, but if you can articulate them better, your project might go a bit smoother.

BACKGROUND

Introduce your business and what you do there.

I’m the president & CEO of History & Heraldry, a wholesale distribution company in Kansas City, Missouri. We sell novelty, personalized gifts, home decor, and home fragrances to retail customers.

OPPORTUNITY / CHALLENGE

What challenge were you trying to address with CM&D?

We needed help with AR and VR work. We wanted to surprise our customers by recreating our products into an animated form so they could go into their smartphones and have the experience.

SOLUTION

What was the scope of their involvement?

We initially had a series of brainstorming sessions because our team wasn’t sure of what we wanted to do. CM&D helped us to come up with ideas; they showed us some concepts that were in the marketplace to help us land on a final solution.

CM&D built the product completely from scratch. The core feature was the QR code that allowed customers to go on their smartphones through Facebook to interact with our products. Users could see the product dancing and singing in front of them.

What is the team composition?

About four teammates were involved in the project, including a marketing product specialist and a technology specialist. However, we mainly worked with Ricky (Founder).

How did you come to work with CM&D?

We interviewed 3–4 companies while we were trying to find a partner. We found CM&D through Google.

How much have you invested with them?

We spent about $10,000.

What is the status of this engagement?

We began the project in December 2022, and it wrapped up in March 2023.

RESULTS & FEEDBACK

What evidence can you share that demonstrates the impact of the engagement?

We’re still in the process of launching, but CM&D did a phenomenal job. We’ve unveiled it to our sales team, and they loved it. We think it’ll help differentiate our company because we’re investing money in innovation. Overall, we think that if we’re excited, the customers will be excited too.

How did CM&D perform from a project management standpoint?

CM&D drove the process; they were on time and within budget. We usually met every week, and they helped moved the project forward. We mostly communicated through video meetings and emails.

What did you find most impressive about them?

First, they were easy to work with. It was a technical project, and they made it easy for us to understand. We also appreciated their creativity; CM&D’s team came up with clever ideas. Finally, CM&D delivered on all of our expectations and lived up to their promise.

Are there any areas they could improve?

No, I can’t think of anything they could’ve improved.

Do you have any advice for potential customers?

You don’t need to come to the table with ideas. CM&D is creative and innovative; let them help you brainstorm.

BACKGROUND

Introduce your business and what you do there.

I work in the IT department at Thompson Hine LLP; we’re a mid-sized law firm, and I’m responsible for delivering projects to support the firm.

OPPORTUNITY / CHALLENGE

What challenge were you trying to address with CM&D?

Our lawyers were getting many questions regarding Blockchain, cryptocurrency, and the metaverse. As the whole suite of disruptive technologies was becoming mainstream and impacting our clients, we wanted to educate our lawyers on leveraging this new technology. We engaged CM&D to help us build a business case to leverage metaverse technology in the legal space.

SOLUTION

What was the scope of their involvement?

We engaged CM&D for a formal statement of work, and they helped us build a business case to present to our leadership team. We shared our goals with them, and they worked to understand our needs and incorporate our grandiose ideas to develop a reasonable solution. They conducted research and returned to us with a strategy document detailing the suggested scope, time, cost, and implementation plan. 

The final deliverable was a white paper outlining their research and a path forward to strategically leverage new technology to help our clients. The CM&D team also presented the final report to our leadership team.  

What is the team composition?

Ricky (Founder) was our main point of contact, who liaised with the marketing and development teams behind the scenes. We also interfaced briefly with their chief metaverse officer at CM&D. 

How did you come to work with CM&D?

We found CM&D online while researching potential service providers. We’d spoken with a dozen metaverse specialists, but I was struck by Ricky’s willingness to listen to our goals and share realistic solutions. He wasn’t trying to sell us things we didn’t need, which we appreciated, so we moved forward. 

How much have you invested with them?

We invested $20,000–$30,000 in the partnership with CM&D. 

What is the status of this engagement?

We engaged CM&D in March 2022, and they presented the final deliverable in October 2022. 

RESULTS & FEEDBACK

What evidence can you share that demonstrates the impact of the engagement? 

Since the final deliverable was a strategy document, we don’t have any solid metrics to share. However, the white paper was well-researched, and CM&D orchestrated a very professional presentation. We started the project with a concrete idea of how we wanted to move forward in the metaverse and what we wanted out of the engagement. However, CM&D wasn’t afraid to challenge our ideas. They educated us on the maturity of metaverse technology and the reality of our situation. They presented alternative solutions for our grandiose ideas that the industry wasn't prepared to accommodate. 

I appreciated that they didn’t just want to please us; instead, they wanted us to understand a realistic path forward and help us get there. Ultimately, they helped us craft a solution that combined the industry’s maturity with our desired spend. CM&D understood our situation and created a path that made sense for us, even if it wasn’t what we originally envisioned. They got us to where we needed to go. 

How did CM&D perform from a project management standpoint?

CM&D nailed everything from a project management standpoint; they delivered the project on time, under budget, and within scope. Furthermore, they were very responsive and available; we never had problems scheduling meetings. They didn’t try to squeeze us for every nickel we could potentially spend; they just delivered what we asked for and billed us for their efforts. Even though they were the most cost-effective option, we got a great deal out of the partnership, and I’m confident we made the right choice.

What did you find most impressive about them?

I appreciated that CM&D was very invested in helping us solve our business problem. I was impressed by how carefully they listened to us and delivered solutions that made sense. 

Are there any areas they could improve?

I have nothing CM&D could improve on; I was satisfied with their work. 

Do you have any advice for potential customers?

I advise taking the time to talk to CM&D about what you’re trying to accomplish. Also, ensure you have your organization’s support, so you can appoint the right people to engage with CM&D. For example, we involved our chief talent officer in the project, who communicated the issues we’d faced with associate mentorship during the COVID-19 pandemic. This enabled CM&D to develop a legal metaverse solution and incorporate how the solution could help solve some of our internal challenges.

BACKGROUND

Introduce your business and what you do there.

I’m an associate director of a healthcare advertising company.

OPPORTUNITY / CHALLENGE

What challenge were you trying to address with CM&D?

We hired them to create a VR experience for one of our clients.

SOLUTION

What was the scope of their involvement?

We wrote the script and storyboarded the project, and then CM&D took that and handled the entire production. They did location scouting, casting, and wardrobe. They hired a director and filmed the project in a 360-degree view. From there, they took the material, stitched it together, and built the UI using our art assets.

CM&D sourced Pico headsets and loaded the VR experience onto them. They also created a kit that was sent to around 100 of our client's representatives for them to use these VR experience headsets. 

What is the team composition?

We mainly worked with Ricky (Founder & Producer) and Wes (Creative Director). 

How did you come to work with CM&D?

We put the project out for bid and had another vendor bid on it. This vendor brought us directly to CM&D. Although the other vendor had a producer credit, once the project got going, we dealt with CM&D directly. 

What is the status of this engagement?

We started working together in July 2022, and the VR experience went live in April 2022.

RESULTS & FEEDBACK

What evidence can you share that demonstrates the impact of the engagement? 

We were really satisfied with the end product. CM&D’s work has been well-received in the field and won a bronze award at an advertising film festival. We also brought it to a national sales meeting our client went to with 2,000 attendees, and hundreds of people experienced it. We’ll also bring it to a large trade show our client will be in. 

How did CM&D perform from a project management standpoint?

Due to the industry we work in, we had last-minute changes with the hard deadline of the sales meeting, and they handled it well, so their project management skills were very good. They were awesome to work with. 

What did you find most impressive about them?

CM&D’s ability to tell a story distinguishes them from other providers. We were initially looking for an experience, and they wanted to ensure they were telling a story. Although our copywriters crafted that story, CM&D was able to direct it and bring it to life. 

Are there any areas they could improve?

I don’t have any constructive feedback. 

Do you have any advice for potential customers?

Make sure you’re working with Ricky! 

BACKGROUND

Introduce your business and what you do there.

I’m the communication and public involvement manager for a professional service consulting firm, primarily doing civil engineering.  

OPPORTUNITY / CHALLENGE

What challenge were you trying to address with Chocolate Milk & Donuts?

The client that I was working with is a regional tolling authority. They build toll roads across the region when traditional funding methods can’t build roads quickly enough. They often build shared-use paths like bicyclists or pedestrian paths. They built an interactive trail, and we worked with Chocolate Milk & Donuts to develop an AR mobile app that corresponds to one of the trails that we plan to build next to a road.

SOLUTION

What was the scope of their involvement?

Chocolate Milk & Donuts helped us with everything from the concept, including user designs and UX. Then they built out the experience using animations and voiceovers. There’s also a navigation feature that helps users track where they are on the trail.

Now, when users approach a sign on the trail, they can open the app on their phone and scan the sign, triggering AR animation. When that happens, there is an audio track that explains what the user is seeing. For instance, one of our signs is about what the land was like in the area during prehistoric times. The app illustrates a life-size prehistoric sea creature while the voiceover talks more about the creature in both English and Spanish.

The app launched in December 2019, but Chocolate Milk & Donuts still maintains the website and addresses any bugs we have. We’re thinking about expanding the app and plan to work with them again.

What is the team composition?

Our primary contact was the CEO and founder of Chocolate Milk & Donuts. He then had a couple of teammates supporting him, including one who was working on UX, another on design and animation, and a third on script and story development.

How did you come to work with Chocolate Milk & Donuts?

We were looking for a local firm that had done AR in the past. We really liked the work Chocolate Milk & Donuts has done in the past. On top of that, they’ve worked with our sister agency, so we knew they were a good fit.  

How much have you invested with them?

We’ve spent between $100,000–$115,000.

What is the status of this engagement?

The project started in May 2019 and is ongoing.

RESULTS & FEEDBACK

What evidence can you share that demonstrates the impact of the engagement? 

People love the app, especially kids.  There’s a recent review that says the app was an excellent use of technology; it was interactive, fun, and interesting.

Another person appreciated how the app highlights trail features and wildlife and considers it a classroom on the go.

How did Chocolate Milk & Donuts perform from a project management standpoint?

They did a great job. There were a lot of moving pieces, so we had a hard time keeping up, but Chocolate Milk & Donuts kept us informed throughout the engagement. They were very patient with us.

What did you find most impressive about them?

They were very attentive. For us, this was a big project, and they made us feel like they were fully invested in the project.

Are there any areas they could improve?

We were trying to launch the app very quickly, and so I wish they told us to have a more realistic timeline. Although the project was delayed, it was primarily our fault. I appreciated that they really hustled and worked hard to meet our timeline.

Do you have any advice for potential customers?

Be open-minded and listen to them because they’re experts. They were able to tell us what was possible and what wasn’t.

BACKGROUND

Please describe your company and your position there.

I'm a VP at a marketing firm that specializes in health and safety campaigns.

OPPORTUNITY / CHALLENGE

For what projects/services did your company hire Chocolate Milk & Donuts, and what were your goals?

We wanted drivers to experience complicated, close-call scenarios to learn where and when to watch for pedestrians and bicyclists when behind the wheel. This is a traffic safety challenge that is hard to communicate with other communication channels -- virtual reality is very instructive for this.

SOLUTION

How did you select Chocolate Milk & Donuts and what were the deciding factors?

I selected Chocolate Milk & Donuts based on recommendation from colleagues.

Describe the scope of work in detail, including the project steps, key deliverables, and technologies used.

We collaboratively designed the game concept based on an existing project. We selected real world locations for CMD to do scouting/testing and 360 filming. We worked together on casting and props.

CMD did all the behind the scenes permitting, etc. Coding and delivery was also seamless. They've helped us with small updates post-delivery as well.

How many people from the vendor's team worked with you, and what were their positions?

My main point of contact with Ricky, Founder & CEO.

RESULTS & FEEDBACK

Can you share any measurable outcomes of the project or general feedback about the deliverables?

We use the module at outreach events across the region and had participants fill out a survey afterwards - 98% of participants reported being more aware of where to look for pedestrians and bicyclists.

Describe their project management style, including communication tools and timelines.

During development, we had regular check-in calls and communicated seamlessly by email and text.

What did you find most impressive or unique about this company?

The communication was clear, the process was straightforward, and the project was successful.

Are there any areas for improvement or something they could have done differently?

All good.

BACKGROUND

Introduce your business and what you do there.

We are an educational technology company that connects middle and high school aged students from over 150 countries to learn together through collaborative online projects. Students and teachers use our supplemental curricula to support reading, writing, and technology skills, and to help build international competencies in a variety of core subjects. I’m a co-founder and chief learning officer with the company. I work on design and publication of all our materials and work closely with our product development team.

OPPORTUNITY / CHALLENGE

What challenge were you trying to address with Chocolate Milk & Donuts?

We received a grant to create an open source educational resource that takes advantage of highspeed internet. We wanted to create a 360 VR video experience that introduced students to different world communities in a nuanced way.

SOLUTION

What was the scope of their involvement?

We worked with them on two 360 VR field trip experiences. They helped with ideation and concept development, and led research on existing VR and 360 applications within the educational space. They then managed the recording, post-production, and deployment of those VR curricular materials.

The first project was a VR field trip series to Pakistan, and the second was a VR field trip across the United States. The first project acted as a pilot program for future projects, and we used a lot of the foundational thinking to speed the ideation process for the second project.

What is the team composition?

We primarily worked with their CEO. He acted as the project manager and oversaw his team of production assistants and developers during each stage.

How did you come to work with Chocolate Milk & Donuts?

We’re also based in Austin, Texas, so we knew about the work they did for other local companies. We chose them based on their track record in content marketing. I knew they were capable of excellent work and felt comfortable hiring a local company that would work within our budget.

How much have you invested with them?

We spent between $10,000–$15,000 per project, so our total spend is between $20,000–$30,000 for both.

What is the status of this engagement?

The first project took place in 2016, and I believe the second project ran from January–June 2018.

RESULTS & FEEDBACK

What evidence can you share that demonstrates the impact of the engagement?

We’re a metrics driven company, so when we designed the first VR field trip project, we set out to track the enrollment and other foundational information. The project outpaced comparable projects, and the 360 VR content was a driving factor. It outperformed 2D counterparts in views per session and student engagement. Students’ written responses were longer and richer in content-specific vocabulary. We’re likely to work with them again on future projects of this nature.

How did Chocolate Milk & Donuts perform from a project management standpoint?

They stayed within our budget and delivered all the assets we wanted within our timeline. I can’t speak highly enough of their ability to execute and meet expectations.

We communicated through Slack and used Trello to manage the project. We also used the Google Drive suite to collaborate on everything from video scripts to shot lists to feedback and edits.

What did you find most impressive about them?

Their professionalism and expertise in the subject matter gave us a lot of confidence. They worked well in our controlled environment in Austin, then they excelled on location. Some of the spaces they worked in had political or religious significance, and they found seamless ways to navigate them all.

Are there any areas they could improve?

We were one of the first companies they worked with in the education space. We learned a lot together during the ideation phase, but it would be great if they added more educational specialists to speed up those initial stages.

Do you have any advice for potential customers?

Trust them. They know a lot about the VR space and its specific rules and cinematographic practices. They made great suggestions for specific shots or framing, so be sure to take advantage of their expertise. They have solid rationale and justification for everything they do, and they created exceptional, high-quality pieces for us.

BACKGROUND

Introduce your business and what you do there.

I’m the digital strategist at Sherry Matthews Group.

OPPORTUNITY / CHALLENGE

What challenge were you trying to address with Chocolate Milk & Donuts?

One of our clients needed virtual reality (VR) development, so we hired the team for support.

SOLUTION

What was the scope of their involvement?

The client wanted a VR experience for a campaign to increase drivers’ awareness of the parameters of where a motorcycle might be. Based on client data, we knew that the most crashes occurred in certain problematic instances like intersections or changing lanes. We went through a process to determine the three most common scenarios and gave it to Chocolate Milk & Donuts. They were tasked with creating an interactive VR experience of driving a car down the road and identifying motorcycles in those scenarios.

Chocolate Milk & Donuts produced a 3D asset with live video. In the transportation space, everything needs to be done exactly right. Aspects like lines on the road will be scrutinized if you try to redraw or rebuild them in an artificial interface like a video game interface. We took the opportunity to take footage of an actual road with lines and signs set up legally and properly, then put a 3D motorcycle into various scenarios. The gaze indicator gives users a vantage point from which to view the motorcycle in each simulated situation.

It was very much a turnkey engagement. Our lead on the project attended meetings to set up the parameters. Afterward, they came back with estimates and proposals for the client to review and decide to move forward on.  Our design team helped create the interface, but for the most part, Chocolate Milk & Donuts produced all of the gaming mechanics, 3D assets, and filming.

What is the team composition? 

We worked directly with the team lead. We didn’t interface with the coders or developers.

How did you come to work with Chocolate Milk & Donuts?

Chocolate Milk & Donuts pitched us at several points. We saw their presentation on best practices in VR and AR several years before we worked with them. As we considered different options, we bid with multiple organizations. The idea of applying a game interface to live footage was presented to us in a case study years before we accomplished it with Chocolate Milk & Donuts.

How much have you invested with them?

We spent between $10,000–$25,000.

What is the status of this engagement?

We worked together from March–May 2018.

RESULTS & FEEDBACK

What evidence can you share that demonstrates the impact of the engagement?

The client was very happy with how the deliverable turned out and with the level of engagement it generated. We were equally pleased. Chocolate Milk & Donuts completed our project in a timely manner. There were no surprises because we received exactly what we expected. If I were to do this project again, I’d do it the same way with them.

How did Chocolate Milk & Donuts perform from a project management standpoint?

The team is located in the same city where we live, so we held frequent face-to-face meetings. We mostly communicated via email and occasionally had phone calls together that included the client. Project management went very smoothly.

We had a very pleasant experience with Chocolate Milk & Donuts. They anticipated many issues and came up with preemptive solutions before they occurred. It’s nice to have a partner with that ability. 

What did you find most impressive about them?

Chocolate Milk & Donuts is very responsive and solution-oriented. It was really nice to work with them. They sent us responses the same day, or even within a few hours.

Are there any areas they could improve?

No.

Do you have any advice for potential customers?

We knew what we were trying to accomplish and had an established scope. Having those steps prepared worked well for us.